File spoon-archives/nietzsche.archive/nietzsche_1998/nietzsche.9804, message 82


Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:09:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matt Dennis <corwin3083-AT-yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: "Genetic Mutation" - Wrong Again!







---John Duryea <jtduryea-AT-dmv.com> wrote:
>
> 
> >> There goes the science of genetics out the window, jettisoned like
> >so much
> >> excess baggage. Gee, wonder why sharks haven't evolved for 200
million
> >> years? Steve just keeps on building his castles in the sand. Note
> >once again
> >> that Steve's latest "theory" cannot rule out that apes evolved from
> >men,
> >> need to add on another wing to the castle Steve. Uh oh, watch out,
> >there's a
> >> tsunami on the horizon...
> >>
> >> John T. Duryea
> >
> >Not to disappoint you, but sharks have evolved in the last 200
million
> >years. Try comparing fossil shark skeletons to modern shark skeletons
> >sometime. Just because a species doesn't change externally, you
should
> >not draw the faulty conclusion that it is not evolving. Sometimes
it's
> >just refining itself
> >
> >-Matt
> 
> 
> Okay, I'll bite...what species did sharks evolve to and are all those
> reports of sharks being caught by fishermen only hoaxes by
creationists?
> Were Mendal's experiments in genetics a hoax also? The subject of
> conversation is the origin of species by gradual evolution, not
> differentiation within the species. After all, man himself can breed
plants
> and animals.
> 
> By the way, "genetic mutation" was a term coined by Hugo de Vries,
one of
> the rediscoverers of Mendel's work. He applied this term to the sudden
> appearance of striking changes in the evening primrose (Oenothera
> lamarckiana). Although the term "genetic mutation" has been retained
by the
> Darwinists as a crutch to their theory of gradual evolution (strange
> mis-match there eh?, but true believers are capable of any leap of
faith),
> it is now known that the the changes observed by De Vries were not
mutations
> but were caused by chromosomal processes peculiar to Oenothera.
> 
> Are there any repeatable, verifiable scientic experiments which cause
> "genetic mutation" and lead to the creation of a new species? Until
such an
> event is an accomplished fact, would not a true scientist consider
"gradual
> evolution" through means of "genetic mutation" as only a theory.
Would a
> physiognomic sceptic consider Darwinism as only a "modern idea",
indeed,
> just a creation of man which like all of his creations, has a history?
> 
> What did Nietzsche mean by science being theology's handmaid for too
long?
> 
> John T. Duryea
> 

Once again you've missed the point, and so once again I'll try to
explain to you exactly what I mean. Sharks may not have changed
externally in the last 200 million years, but that does not mean that
they have not changed at all. Have you heard of the term "speciation?"
Speciation is, basically, the splitting of one species into two over
time. Speciation may not involve radical external changes to the
involved species, but it is evolution nevertheless. Sharks are pretty
well evolved for what they do- swim, eat, and make baby sharks. So,
why are radical changes to the genome necessary? The "one, primordial
shark" has, however, split into many, many different species of
sharks. Sharks have undergone speciation. A great white cannot breed
with a hammerhead; therefore they are different species. They also
look somewhat different. How do you explain the differences, if not
through evolution?
And, not to disappoint you again, but speciation has not only been
observed in nature, but controlled in labs! So much for gradual
evolution not being observed.
I think the point that you really don't grasp is the time scale
involved. for a new species to evolve in a thousand years, or even a
hundred thousand, would be incredibly fast. Darwin himself never said
that evolution proceeded by changes within generations. Rather,
evolution takes place over many generations, in blocks of time so
immense that the human mind (average life span 80 years) cannot grasp.
Try reading the faq at www.talkorigins.org/faqs/darwinism.html for a
better explanation.

-Matt 
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