File spoon-archives/nietzsche.archive/nietzsche_2000/nietzsche.0009, message 9


Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 18:57:16 +0100
From: Ruth Chandler <R.Chandler-AT-ucc.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Nietzsche ist tot ( a question of stress ?)


James,

>>> James Kennedy <jameske3001-AT-clara.co.uk> 09/04 3:21 am >>>
Ruth,

I tend to look at Nietzsche's views regarding women in the light of a
difference I feel is justifiable to make:

Women are conceptually different from females. Just as men are conceptually
different from males.

The terms male and female lack the connotations of men and women in western
society. One needs only to watch the banal escapades that go on in talk
shows such as Oprah.

"All men are liars"

"All women are treacherous"

Blah Blah Blah.

Those kind of statements belong to mass media and consumer culture. Those
attitudes are utilised to create an eternal feud of miniscule proportions -
but suitable for the needs of capitalism. I am not denying that the concept
of 'woman' will have traits in common with 'female' - likewise for 'man' and
'male' but I do suggest that they are different - perhaps because male and
female connote physiological types, whereas 'men' and 'women' connote iconic
images, mass attitudes, consumer stereotypes et al.

the sex/gender distinction is heavily debated in feminism(s_-while i have a
lot of disagreements with Judith Butler, i  share her emphasis on the
constructivist definition of both the terms of sex and gender. so its not
like there is biological sexual difference with culture added on-both are
interpollative, or performative. in different kinds of ways.
true it is hard for men and women to grow new organs overnight but i view
both molar categories as 'big machines' or framing devices for what bodies
can do. sure different connatations but neither set is innocent!

Nietzsche may or may not have had such conceptual differences in mind.
However, it is worthy of bearing in mind. He might have disliked women but
liked females. Perhaps were he alive in our times he would have disliked
Princess Diana and liked Germaine Greer?

i think Diana would have proved N right about women as artists and GG would
have proved N right about women's emancipation!

as far a Nietzsche and Feminism go - it seems to me that Nietzsche's
insights into power and critical history are valuable for feminism as a
movement.

most definitely and especially for healthy critique when the libidinal
investments of feminism(s) get a little stuck.

Question: Could Nietzsche have deliberately categorized and pigeon-holed
women in order that they recognize where they were in the power structure?

i think he may well have wanted to shock some women out a trajectory he
imagined to be symptomatic of declining life-as the most conservative strand
of N's thinking, women's power is seen to reside (in Human all too Human) as
'guardians of morality and custom'. throughout his ouvre women would seem
the necessary foil for his definitions of active noble and so on.  N's views
of women are complex and do not remain static but i would say that he
holds,simultanously, an essential, relational and constructivist view of
gender. i.e certain values are  an ascribed essential gender character which
operate relationally. at the same time, N is well aware that women, over a
few centuries could become something entirely different mentally, 'even men'
and is not unaware of psychic knots and contradictions  which some women,
the same kind of grouping as Freud's hysterics, find themselves in.
 
Perhaps he envisioned the female arising out of the woman? Did he envision a
backlash? 

he does say something about the bewildering mindless babble of modern
politics and culture if women got hold of them (with a male backlash of
anger) N's image of the noble woman seems mainly oriental in inspiration and
not that useful.  however, much as N is hostile to particular images of
women i think arguments for  a broader becoming-woman of his texts are
sustainable ( as long as woman is itself seen as a fluctuating definition)
rather than dichotomising values as either male or female N often gives a
positive and negative valuation of the same concept-i.e spiritual pregancy
is valorised over actual pregancy and so on-vlaues which are negatively
ascribed to women early in his oevre find their way into his own values as
positve definitions (and sometimes back again!) this is still dichotomising
within the broad poles of active/reactive hierarchy but not necessarily
through mutual exclusion. most of N's images of women are not that helpful
as feminist evaluations but there is nothing to stop women using some of N's
strategies to invent new values for themselves-behold the superdragon! 

On the other hand, perhaps he thought his works would only be read
by men, although I am not inclined to believe that he did think that.

I am merely speculating with regards to the above, as I am sure you are the
expert with regards to feminism and its connection to Nietzsche having
studied both for your PhD.

no expert, N has a way of making one realise how insignificant ones values
are and  life  no argument...

By the way, did you get funding for your PhD, and if so from where?

not a chance!-although  i had a very strong first as an undergraduate-you
really need to find some way to do an MA if you want to stand a chance of
funding and i could not afford that at the time. having my fees waived made
the difference between doing and not doing ( quite a few departments offer
this) so have busted my ass teaching to support the thesis part time-very
good experience but it has meant taking  over four years to complete. 

ciao
Ruth.C


----- Original Message -----
From: Ruth Chandler <R.Chandler-AT-ucc.ac.uk>
To: <nietzsche-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: Nietzsche ist tot ( a question of stress ?)


> hello all,
>
>  i have just subscribed and have attached my first post to this string as
my
> mail keeps bouncing for some reason.
>
>  i am also a feminist who really likes Nietzsche although i do think some
> (not all) of his generalised remarks on women are unsalvagable as
statements
> on sexual difference but completely salvageable as articulating
Nietzsche's
> relationship to the 'outside' of his thinking (including his relation to
> nature). the interior practical problems of his texts seem to lie in
making
> women's bodies stand as qualitatitve signs for a) superficiality b)
> ontological impossibility and c) as figures for slave morality par
> excellence. at the same time, placing Nietzsche's misogyny in the context
of
> some the actual women he knew does lets him off the hook a bit in my eyes!
> contentiously, one of my arguments against some strands of contemporary
> feminism(s) is that the last thing feminst politics needs to do is prove
> Nietzsche right about women!
>
>  i am a phd student in the final torturous stages of writing up. my thesis
> is on Nietzsche and feminism(s) and looks at the potentials (and creative
> obstacles) which might be made by recasting N's untimely/timely
problematics
> within the discursive formations of contemporary feminist problems. i am
> particularly interested in the way in which attempts to claim N's thought
of
> eternal recurrence have produced very different philosophies of time and,
> especially, the evolving relation of Deleuze's philosophy in relation to
> this thought.
>
> unfortunately, i am not a german speaker and although this has produced a
> critical stance to the creative repetitions of translation, i find myself
> stuck for a plausible answer to the question of 'weight' versus 'stress'
in
> Walter Kaufman's translation of the section on eternal recurrence (The Gay
> Science). the choice of 'weight' over 'stress' seems to be supported by
the
> importance of the spirit of gravity but, for a whole set of other reasons,
i
> thought it might be quite interesting to develop a reading based on stress
> if there were enough textual grounds for this minor reading.
>
> i would greatly appreciate any advice list members who have read Nietzsche
> in the original might be able to offer on this issue, even if they are
> emphatic grounds against!
>
> best wishes
> Ruth Chandler
> ( n.b the lack of capitals for everything except book titles and proper
> names is 'intentional' within my own feminist praxis and not a 'lazy' mode
> of address!)
>
>
> >>> <Douve1-AT-aol.com> 09/01 2:19 pm >>>
> George,
>
> You're right, I am a feminist -- and one who really likes N.  My questions
> were not a passive aggressive critique of him, but a direct request for
> information as to the thinking going on in the post itself.  For some
> clarification.  Let me try again.
>
> In a message dated 08/31/2000 3:36:14 PM Central Daylight Time,
> search-research-AT-worldnet.att.net writes:
>
> >  At 11:05 AM 8/31/00 EDT, you wrote:
> >  >
> >  >1) What does "fundamentally" mean?  I'm serious.  I see our world now
as
>
> >  >vastly different from that of Hesiod, or Nietzsche's for that matter,
so
>
> I
> >  >need to know what 'fundamentally' means for you in order to understand
> your
> >
> >  >thinking.
> >
> >  That the engine that drive progress and morality is ressentiment, as
> >  explained in other posts.
>
> Thank you for that partial clarification.  So we are not discussing
material
>
> differences, or cultural difference, but psychological similarity.  Cool.
> Morality (and here I think we should specify repressive moralities) are
> driven by ressentiment, and I would add, fear.  But progress?  Again I
need
> clarification.  Do you mean invention? Scientific discovery? The
development
>
> of new school's of art? Political progress? Progress through war?  I need
> the
> clarification because I'm not sure that ressentiment drives all these
> aspects
> of progress all of the time, and I'm not sure that there is any such
actual
> thing as progress (in the Humanist sense -- which ties technological
> advancement to moral betterment) at all.  I don't want to jump on the list
> and wind up assuming I know how you all are using these words.  In fact
you
> seem to think that there is no such thing as progress if fundamentally
> nothing's changed. So what does this word mean in the context of this
list's
>
> discussions?
>
> >
> >  >
> >  >2) What is a true democracy?  For the Greeks, the historical Greeks,
did
>
> > not
> >  >let slaves or women (the vast majority of their population) vote or
own
> >  >property.  The voters were free, who, relative to the swarming masses,
> had
> >  >little resentment as the whole society was arranged for their benefit.
> > This
> >  >is a societal condition N either ignores, or is unaware of, perhaps?
> It's
> >  >certianly a difference this post is glossing over.
> >
> >  Yes, feminists will point this out every chance they get. However we
are
> >  still glossing over the fact that many men were not much better off
than
> >  the women, and some women were even able to achieve power and status
well
> >  above most men. There have always been exceptional women in all ages
that
> >  did not let mere tradition get in their way. Aspasia most likely did
not
> >  gain her status through resentment of men. For another possibility on
> >  Nietzsche's thoughts on women, maybe this will help:
> >  http://home.att.net/~search-research/parkesfem.html 
> >
>
> Thanks for the URL, I'll check it out.  My point was, and please read
well,
> that I don't know what YOU mean by "Greece was a true democracy" in a
> society
> in which only a tiny portion of the population (and yes, I KNOW there were
> men who were badly off, there were slaves of both sexes, of course) could
> vote, own business or property, etc.  Give that social fact, what do you
> mean
> by 'true democracy' in your previous post?  And why would anyone for whom
a
> whole society was arranged to benefit feel resentment?  It seem to me that
> if
> the whole world were as perfectly arranged to my desires and needs as I
> could
> humanly get it, I feel precious little resentment as well.  The people on
> top
> of the social hierarchy are usually fairly contented lot.  So, how can
they
> function as an example to those of us who are not at the top?  Would their
> way of being content and developing themselves suit us and our situations?
> OR would we need to find another path to and shape for our own
> self-fulfillment and perfection?
>
> Secondly, I gave N an out on this point about women being literally
property
>
> because I don't know if he knew about it, and his knowing would make very
> little negative impact on my reading of him.
>
> Thirdly, Aspasia may not have gained her place through the resentment of
> men,
> but the Greeks had plenty of resentment and dislike for most of their
women,
>
> like adult women could not go out of their house without permission, their
> bodies were at times considered the model of the ugly. It reminds me,
> frankly
> of Taliban-Lite what I know of Greek policy on women.  This is clearly and
> well documented.  Now, I know that lots of men had no freedom either, but
> you
> seem to be defending the Greeks social policy on women with the example of
> one woman.  What does that one example accomplish?
>
> Given that "Greece was a true democracy" and the Greeks "were" without
> ressentiment, and that some on the list think that our current democracy
is
> flawed because it lets the masses air their ressentiment (which btw most
do
> not do in the form of voting), then is there some desire floating in the
air
>
> on this list to return to a true democracy?  The rhetoric of these posts
is
> making me wonder about this.  And if so, would I, a woman, have to go back
> into my private quarters never to seen in public without my husband again?
>
> Lastly, I'm new to the list, so let me make this general note to the whole
> of
> us -- and excuse me for making a gigantic assumption in what I'm about to
> say.  I'm aware that Nietzsche enthusiasts can get nervous and defensive
> when
> a feminist comes around, but please, don't condescend to me.  I'm a not
> wholly uncritical of Nietzsche, but then I don't he would respect me if I
> simply accepted everything he said, having been such a sharp analytical
> intellect himself.  I'm on the list because he interests me, and because I
> find much of his thought attractive. So relax.  Nietzsche may not be my
long
>
> suit, but then I'd bet that my long suit isn't yours either.  I'm just
> trying
> to figure out what the climate is like on this list, that's all.
>
> Be well,
> Simone
>
>
>  --- from list nietzsche-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
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> --- from list nietzsche-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
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