From: "The Dude" <erebos999-AT-hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: prisoner's dilemma defined
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 12:13:44 -0400


Jason is right,  especially with #1




>From: Jason Ingram <jingram-AT-usc.edu>
>Reply-To: nietzsche-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
>To: nietzsche-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
>Subject: Re: prisoner's dilemma defined
>Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 18:03:15 -0700
>
>Just off the fly, without reference to specific texts, it seems to me
>that the conception of rationality underlying games theory in general
>is suspect from a Nietzschean perspective:
>
>it assumes knowledge of discrete "units" of benefit (three problems
>there: what is the good, how can we be confident in our knowledge of
>it, and why is a utilitarian conception of self-interest the best
>means to construct a "joyful" life?).  Specifically, in reference to
>the prisoner's dilemma:
>
>1)  why is the amount of time spent incarcerated the only constituent
>of self-interest?  What of the "cost" of betrayal, and the danger
>that we wouldn't be able to think back on our betrayal and will that
>act over again?  None of these count as factors in computing
>self-interest according to this abstract model.
>
>2)  how can the prisoners be sure that they are not being tested by
>their secret society?  They might be killed if they betray their
>comrade.  This reflects a troublesome reification of truth and
>knowledge, which Nietzsche indirectly addresses.
>
>3)  The framing of the problem or question itself is irksome.
>
>Jason
>
>
>>here is an example of the famous problem often called 'the prisoner's
>>dilemma':
>>
>>In the cells of the Ruritanian secret police are two politcal prisoners. 
>>The
>>police are trying to persuade them to confess to membership in the an
>>illegal opposition party.  The prisoners know that if neither of them
>>confesses, the police will not be able to make the charge stick, but they
>>will be interrogated in the cells for another three months before the 
>>police
>>give up and let them go.  If one of them confesses, implicating the other,
>>the one who confesses will be released immediately but the other will be
>>sentanced to eight years in jail. If both of them confess, their
>>helpfullness will be taken into account and they will get five years in
>>jail.  Since the prisoners are interrogated separately, neither can know 
>>if
>>the other has confessed or not.
>>
>>The dilemma is, of course, whether to confess. The point of the story is
>>that circumstances have been so arranged that if either prisoner reasons
>>from the point of view od self-interestr, she will find it to her 
>>advantage
>>to confess; whereastaking the interests of the two prisoners togetehr, it 
>>is
>>obviously in their interests if neither confesses. Thus the first 
>>prisoner's
>>self-interested calculations go like this: "If the other prisoner 
>>confesses,
>>it will be better for me if i have also confessed, for then I will get 
>>five
>>years instead of eight; and if the other prisoner does not confess, it 
>>will
>>still be better for me if I confess, for then I will be released
>>immediately, instead of being interrogated for another three months. Since
>>we are interrogated seperately, whether the other prisoner confesses has
>>nothing to do with whether I confess--our choices are entirely independent
>>of each other. SO whatever happens, it will be better for me if I 
>>confess."
>>The second prisoner's self-intereseted reasoning will, of course, follow
>>exactly the same route as the first prisoner's, and will come to the same
>>conclusion. As a result, both prisoners. if self-interested, will confess,
>>and bothwill sped the next five years in prison. There was a way for them
>>both to be out in three moneths, but because they were locked into purely
>>seld-interested calculations, they could not take that route.
>>
>>Now, my question is about a prisoner that is acting on Nietzschean ethical
>>principles (and what exacltly would they be). What would he/she do, and 
>>what
>>would be the rationale behind it?
>>
>>----
>>Michal
>>
>>
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