From: "Julie Varvaro" <matisse22-AT-earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Of the Three Metamorphoses
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 07:36:42 -0600



----- Original Message -----
From: "Juan Ciriza" <jciriza-AT-yahoo.com>
To: <nietzsche-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: Of the Three Metamorphoses


>
> What I find interesting is the connection between the child and the
overman:
> the child should supposedly be seen as the overman, or at least what N
calls
> 'a creator' in Z (creator of values among other things).
> And I agree with him too in finding the concept of the child only
> vaguely sketched and not perfectly outlined: perhaps the overman/child
belongs
> more to the future than to the present/past.
>
>

in the prologue, the hermit/saint does say that Z is a child. It seems that
there might be a stage pass the child.

> -Nathan brought up a somewhat common sense view. He wrote:
>
> > Basically the child is innocent not by being pure (for no one and no
thing is
>
> > pure) but because the child forgets.  Think about little kids when they
have
> > fights and each says "I'm never playing with you again" -- in about 15
> > minutes they're playing again.  When their parents get into a fight,
though,
> > and say "I'm never going to speak to you again", they never speak to
each
> > other again.
> > The parents are sunk in ressentiment; the innocent forgetting of the
child is
>
> > a path to overcoming.
>
> No comment on that. It seems so obvious to me that I find no option but to
> agree
> with him completely. Sorry if it sounds simple minded on my part.

might i add that the key difference should be the ability to affirm through
the ER.  there must be the right amount of remembering and forgetfulness.
One cannot forget the 'greatest weight' yet one must be able to affirm it.
>
>
> -There was an additional opinion which agreed with Nathan's:
>
> > forgetfulness of children, which helps them reinvent themselves,
>
> I think ressentiment should be overcome by anyone (not just children) who
wants
>
> to reinvent him/herself, or simply by anyone who wants to live in the
present
> (and plan for the future) and not in the past (which is when ressentiment
> begins). And some authors believe Z's teachings are aimed mainly at the
future
> (the overman, who has to reinvent himself in order to exist as such), and
not
> even to the present, which (according to these authors) Z/N finds tightly
> coupled to the past (the present would be just a consequence of the past).
>
as a 'book for all or no one,' with the circular movement of teachings, it
seems that the teachings are for the present, for 'fishing for men' in the
present who will live for the future, i.e. for the overman.  the present is
to create the overman, or the conditions for his growth.

>
> -John Peterson wrote:
>
> > it is important to note that children are easier to control than
> > adults. They are innocent, which means they are not suspicious, and
> > they are forgetful, which makes them manipulable.
>
> This would be a negative perspective of the child. The child as a
manipulable
> being. And I can't agree with it, because it would imply that Z's
teachings
> would not be destined to the overman, but to the individuals who would
control
> (or manipulate) the overman. Sounds too dissappointing to me, as I think
N's
> target readers are the future overmen and not the leaders who'd controle
them.

he only uses the plural form once.  it doesnt' seem as if there are to be
'overmen' but rather one 'overMAN.'

>
> > Camel, Lion, Child. First work, then war, and finally - What?
>
> -Ruth Chandler wrote:
>
> > I find it easier to think of all three things as a process rather than a
> > series with an end product.
>

exactly. the conception of time does change in Z, and to think that it is
linear would be to remain wrapped up in a ressentiful conception of time.

> I'm sorry but can't agree with that. N's words were too clear in my
opinion:
>
> "how the spirit shall become a camel, and the camel a lion, and the lion
at
> last a child."
>
> I mean, there would be a process with three stages and a final end
product.

but does the rest of the book show us this? or doesn't Z learn and grow and
change his teachings?



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