File spoon-archives/nietzsche.archive/nietzsche_2002/nietzsche.0202, message 8

Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:48:09 +0000
Subject: Re: Of the Three Metamorphoses

>>> Julie Varvaro <> 02/17 1:36 pm >>>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Juan Ciriza" <>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: Of the Three Metamorphoses

> What I find interesting is the connection between the child and the
> the child should supposedly be seen as the overman, or at least what N
> 'a creator' in Z (creator of values among other things).
> And I agree with him too in finding the concept of the child only
> vaguely sketched and not perfectly outlined: perhaps the overman/child
> more to the future than to the present/past.

in the prologue, the hermit/saint does say that Z is a child. It seems that
there might be a stage pass the child.

Alternatively, Deleuze suggests that Z only achieves two out of the three metamorphoses which would account for the vagueness of the child. 

> -Nathan brought up a somewhat common sense view. He wrote:
> > Basically the child is innocent not by being pure (for no one and no
thing is
> > pure) but because the child forgets.  Think about little kids when they
> > fights and each says "I'm never playing with you again" -- in about 15
> > minutes they're playing again.  When their parents get into a fight,
> > and say "I'm never going to speak to you again", they never speak to
> > other again.
> > The parents are sunk in ressentiment; the innocent forgetting of the
child is
> > a path to overcoming.
> No comment on that. It seems so obvious to me that I find no option but to
> agree
> with him completely. Sorry if it sounds simple minded on my part.

might i add that the key difference should be the ability to affirm through
the ER.  there must be the right amount of remembering and forgetfulness.
One cannot forget the 'greatest weight' yet one must be able to affirm it.
This is one of the reasons why I would suggest a tripartite process. If the forgetfullness of the child were an end goal, this 'end' would be quite, quite stupid. However, I am not sure that we can determine the right amount of remembering and forgetting without calling upon a superhistorical monument to decide this. Further, it is not clear that one would continue to expereince the greatest weight as a weight. It might be that affirmation resides in transforming the feeling of great weight into a feeling of lightness. One can carry more if one is not burdened with it? 

> -There was an additional opinion which agreed with Nathan's:
> > forgetfulness of children, which helps them reinvent themselves,
> I think ressentiment should be overcome by anyone (not just children) who
> to reinvent him/herself, or simply by anyone who wants to live in the
> (and plan for the future) and not in the past (which is when ressentiment
> begins). And some authors believe Z's teachings are aimed mainly at the
> (the overman, who has to reinvent himself in order to exist as such), and
> even to the present, which (according to these authors) Z/N finds tightly
> coupled to the past (the present would be just a consequence of the past).

My view is that N gets it wrong by locating a discrete typology of types, ressentiment versus nobility. I think he gets it wrong because he never finishes overcoming his own ressentiments. However,  I think there is a case for modes of emphasis in each an every body, some of which are more full of ressentiment than others, some of which may be more noble as N discusses it. N can't pose nobility  for the few (or the one_ without the conditions of ressentiment for the majority-one of the few places where he explicitly discusses the material conditions for the overman are as surplus countermovement to the conditions of mass enslavement. the majority thus stand as a dance floor, a dance floor machined into specialised utilities, for a noble culture above and beyond their all-too-human concerns. You might want to dispute this point, but I cannot reconcile my uptake of Nietzsche with my politics without posing a way out of this dilemma. This does not mean a return to 'everything is equal!' however. 

as a 'book for all or no one,' with the circular movement of teachings, it
seems that the teachings are for the present, for 'fishing for men' in the
present who will live for the future, i.e. for the overman.  the present is
to create the overman, or the conditions for his growth.

> -John Peterson wrote:
> > it is important to note that children are easier to control than
> > adults. They are innocent, which means they are not suspicious, and
> > they are forgetful, which makes them manipulable.
> This would be a negative perspective of the child. The child as a
> being. And I can't agree with it, because it would imply that Z's
> would not be destined to the overman, but to the individuals who would
> (or manipulate) the overman. Sounds too dissappointing to me, as I think
> target readers are the future overmen and not the leaders who'd controle

he only uses the plural form once.  it doesnt' seem as if there are to be
'overmen' but rather one 'overMAN.'

can we not think of Nietzsche's 'children', strictly boys I might add, as vehicles to the 'overMAN'- alternatively, all the kings horses and all the kings men, will never put Dionysus back together again!  
> > Camel, Lion, Child. First work, then war, and finally - What?
> -Ruth Chandler wrote:
> > I find it easier to think of all three things as a process rather than a
> > series with an end product.

exactly. the conception of time does change in Z, and to think that it is
linear would be to remain wrapped up in a ressentiful conception of time.


> I'm sorry but can't agree with that. N's words were too clear in my
> "how the spirit shall become a camel, and the camel a lion, and the lion
> last a child."
> I mean, there would be a process with three stages and a final end

but does the rest of the book show us this? or doesn't Z learn and grow and
change his teachings?

It would be good to share a reading of some of these themes?
Juan, if you are interested, would you like to say how Z supports your reading?


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