File spoon-archives/phillitcrit.archive/phillitcrit_1998/phillitcrit.9802, message 13


From: Patsloane-AT-aol.com
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:44:13 EST
Subject: Re: PLC: sets


Dear Joerg,

This is so embarrassing, like when they ask you at the airport if you're
really sure no  strangers gave you any bombs that they asked you to carry on
the plane.  I didn't know Walter was setting a trap for you.

Walter, would you please answer Joerg's question, because it's way over my
head.

I have to admit I don't spend a lot of time thinking about whether or not I
exist, because I can't see what difference it would make one way or the other.
It's rather like asking if I was glerg or not glerg when nobody knows what
glerg means.

I'm not sure I understand what "exist" means, or how one could distinguish
between what exists and what does not exist. Joerg?

>  but a  fact originally known is acknowledged by a simple intuition of the
>  mind.

Well, that's how your mind works. Mine doesn't.  First time i heard that
"Cogito ergo sum," I said, no, I don't think so. Makes no sense.  I like
sensible statements, like Aristotle saying you can't see yellow at the same
time and place you see blue. Or Goethe saying there are no optical illusions,
only optical truths.  

pat

=============================================================
In a message dated 98-02-01 15:12:45 EST, you write:

> Subj:	 Re: PLC: sets
>  Date:	98-02-01 15:12:45 EST
>  From:	jtg-AT-owl-online.de (Joerg T. Gruel)
>  Sender:	owner-phillitcrit-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU
>  Reply-to:	phillitcrit-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU
>  To:	phillitcrit-AT-jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU
>  
>  Dear Pat,
>  
>  Nor am I coy; hackers aren't, they're tough; they don't care much
>  about ergonomy. Yet as you're passing over to me dear Walter's
>  cunning trap, I'll try my best to evade and let Renatus speak for
>  himself:
>  
>  "Cum autem advertimus, nos esse res cogitantes, prima quaedam
>  notio est, quae ex nullo syllogismo concluditur, neque etiam, cum
>  quis dicit: ego cogito, ergo sum sive existo, existentiam ex
>  cogitatione per syllogismum deducit, sed tanquam  rem per se notam
>  simplici mentis intuitu agnoscit, ut patet ex eo, quod si eam per
>  syllogismum deduceret, novisse prius debuisset istam majorem:
>  illud omne, quod cogitat, est sive existit, atqui profecto ipsam
>  potius discit ex eo, quod apud se experiatur, fieri non posse ut
>  cogitet, nisi existat." (quoted after Feuerbach, who has Resp. ad
>  II. Obj., p.74)
>  
>  Which means, freely put: conceiving ourselves as Thinking Beings
>  is a primary concept, which does not follow from a conclusion, so
>  that the "cogito ergo sum" isn't derived from a conclusion, but a
>  fact originally known is acknowledged by a simple intuition of the
>  mind. For if it were arrived at by a conclusion, you'd have to
>  know that major proposition first, that is, that everything
>  thinking exists - which you can only know from your proper
>  experience (so any such attempt would throw a petitio principii
>  error).
>  
>  So what does the "ergo" mean ? as neither the mere concept of
>  thinking implies being, nor that of being thinking, yet in
>  considering the act of thinking I conceive them as being one and
>  the same, the "ergo" would denote the unrefutable certainty of the
>  intuition which  reveals that synthesis.
>  
>  Would you mind asking Walter what he thinks of this ?
>  
>  Cheerfully,
>  
>  Joerg
>  
>  
>  Patsloane-AT-aol.com wrote:
>  
>  > > Pat --
>  > >  Dear Joerg is playing coy again. Ask him what "ergo" means.
>  > >  Fondly,
>  > >  Walter
>  > >  ========================================>  >
>  > Dear Joerg,
>  >
>  > You're so smart about philosophy. What does "ergo" meant?
>  >
>  > Fondly,
>  >
>  > pat
>  >
>  >      --- from list phillitcrit-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
>  
>  
>  
>  --------------------
>  
>  Dear Pat,
>  
>  
> Nor am I coy; hackers aren't, they're tough; they don't care much about
>  ergonomy. Yet as you're passing over to me dear Walter's cunning trap,
>  I'll try my best to evade and let Renatus speak for himself:
>  
>  
> "Cum autem advertimus, nos esse res cogitantes, prima quaedam notio
>  est, quae ex nullo syllogismo concluditur, neque etiam, cum quis
>  dicit: ego cogito, ergo sum sive existo, existentiam ex cogitatione per
>  syllogismum deducit, sed tanquam  rem per se notam simplici mentis
>  intuitu agnoscit, ut patet ex eo, quod si eam per syllogismum deduceret,
>  novisse prius debuisset istam majorem: illud omne, quod cogitat, est sive
>  existit, atqui profecto ipsam potius discit ex eo, quod apud se
>  experiatur, fieri non posse ut cogitet, nisi existat." (quoted after 
> Feuerbach,
>  who has Resp. ad II. Obj., p.74)
>  
>  
> Which means, freely put: conceiving ourselves as Thinking Beings is
>  a primary concept, which does not follow from a conclusion, so that the
>  "cogito ergo sum" isn't derived from a conclusion, but a fact originally
>  known is acknowledged by a simple intuition of the mind. For if it were
>  arrived at by a conclusion, you'd have to know that major proposition
first,
>  that is, that everything thinking exists - which you can only know from
>  your proper experience (so any such attempt would throw a petitio principii
>  error).
>  
>  
> So what does the "ergo" mean ? as neither the mere concept of thinking
>  implies being, nor that of being thinking, yet in considering the act of
>  thinking I conceive them as being one and the same, the "ergo" would denote
>  the unrefutable certainty of the intuition which  reveals that 
> synthesis.
>  
>  
> Would you mind asking Walter what he thinks of this ?
>  
>  
> Cheerfully,
>  
>  
> Joerg
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Patsloane-AT-aol.com wrote:
>  <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>> Pat --
>  
> >  Dear Joerg is playing coy again. Ask him what "ergo" means.
>  
> >  Fondly,
>  
> >  Walter
>  
> >  ========================================>  
>  
> Dear Joerg,
>  
>  
> You're so smart about philosophy. What does "ergo" meant?
>  
>  
> Fondly,
>  
>  
> pat
>  


     --- from list phillitcrit-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---

   

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