Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 13:28:08 -0400
Subject: Re: VS: PLC: Marxist Propaganda
From: "Reni Celeste" <rceleste-AT-rochester.rr.com>


Yes, yes, I was there. I read it all. In fact I joined the list around the
time this feed commenced so I haven't been able to enjoy what the list
probably has to offer outside this moment. I'm not addressing you
specifically Howard, but now that you have responded I wonder what your
opinion is on calling someone a "clown" and their supporters "spammers",
asserting publicly that they cannot read or think their way out of a wet
paper bag, just because you fancy yourself more sophisticated in
argumentation; telling them they are out of their league and should shut up
and listen, and then proclaiming rhetorical victory when I suspect most
people on this list are as disgusted as I am with the pretension. All of
this is really crude and poor etiquette for a listserve, no? And yet you
wince at the term "pompous ass". I'm afraid at this point it has become a
pretty appropriate description.

I suggest we flush the toilet on this one and move on to a more sincerely
"civil discussion." How many people look forward to a mailbox full of
rubbish every day? I think for awhile there was some worthwhile intellectual
work in this debate, but now it has just become pure cruelty. ok? Is anyone
else out there upset by this?

r

----------
>From: Howard Hastings <hhasting-AT-osf1.gmu.edu>
>To: phillitcrit-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
>Subject: Re: VS: PLC: Marxist Propaganda
>Date: Fri, Jul 14, 2000, 10:18 AM
>

> On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Reni Celeste wrote:
>
>> Not so fast george. The verdict on this list is not yet in. Before the 3
>> contending pompous asses who have dominated this intellectual lynching get
>> delerious in victory and self-congratulations,
>
> I am not clear whom you are addressing here since at least 5 people have
> weighed in on Troy's remarks.  But I suspect I am one of the addressees
> since I have spent the most time responding to Troy.
>
> I am rather surprised to think you perceive some kind of "intellectual
> lynching" going on here.  Troy motivated me to write by stating that
> Marxists could not be argued with.  He also warned listmembers to
> "beware" whom they were dealing with because he was "well read" in marxism
> and marxist literary theory.  He promptly followed this by a number of
> historically inaccurate statements about the history of Marxism and Marx's
> own views, which he apparently still stands by.
>
> When he did all this, I did not dismiss him as an "ideologue" or call
> his arguments "nonsense" as he did others'. I pointed out the inaccuracies
> and asked for sources and raised the issue of how one "proves" an argument
> with sources,  which I guess is the "intellecual lynching" part.  One spin
> off of this discussion was a very thoughtful post by Ben Day explaining an
> aspect of intellectual conflict in terms of the cultural/ideological
> situationa of the participants.  Two more by Boris Vidovic commented (on
> the basis of personal experience) on the difference between Marxism in
> theory and praxis. Several other posters also raised interesting issues or
> questions along the way.  Looks to me like a genuine intellectual exchange
> has been going on here.
>
> And yet, you address me (and others) as a "pompous ass" because
> I have pointed out Troy's inaccuracies and asked for sources of plainly
> false contentions.  Why wouldn't Troy's prejudgments of Marx and Marxism
> constitute an "intellectual lynching", especially since it seems a product
> of unfamiliarity?  Why wouldn't his claim to be "well read" in these
> matters, coupled with a dismissal of what he has not read as
> "nonsense" open him to the charge of pompous ass?
>
>  I for one want to make public
>> how unimpressed I am with your posts, your pride, your belittling irony,
>> your lack of respect for the other, and most specifically, your treatment of
>> Troy. Your rhetoric is not nearly as convincing as you imagine. I find it
>> hard to believe you are the professionals and educators you claim to be.
>
> Someone claims to know a subject and follows the claim by a number of
> insupportable statements. So far ok.   Others point out how insupportable
> these statements are. Then we have pompous asses engaged in intellectual
> lynching.  Right now it is hard to imagine what you expect of an educator,
> or what sort of post would "impress" you.
>
> hh
> .....................................................................
>
>
>
>
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