From: zatavu-AT-excite.com
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 12:47:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: PLC: With which fork does one eat crow?


>  Because when G and Barron start acting like asses to people on this list,
not 
>  just you, it's usually because they're tired of trying to find ways to
ask 
>  someone, not just you, for some serious support for their arguments; and
when 
>  you start acting like an ass, you tend to make wildly stupid assumptions,

>  like for instance the one that Barron secretly hates you because you can 
>  write poems or novels, and you assume that he can't (for which you have
no 
>  evidence at all), or claim to know what some writer is thinking in their
head 
>  (or at least that's what the rhetorical level of your posts indicates) 
>  instead of, say, quoting from an actual, say, TEXT and offering a reading
of 
>  IT that might support what you say.

First, I did not say that Barron hated me, etc. I suggested that many who
enter literary criticism (and I suggested that perhaps he was among them) do
so because secretly they hate literature because they are themselves
incapable of writing novels or poems themselves that approach those we
consider literature. As such, they make suggestions as to how literary texts
are constructed that are completely wrong as much as anything to mislead
young writers and to misdurect them, suggesting they should take an approach
to writing that 99.99% of the time results in failure. Further, by
approaching the teaching of the texts as has been suggested, students are
turned off from them, discouraging them from reading literature. This is
perhaps done more to avoid competition, since unfortunately the demand for
literary scholars had been shrinking of late.   If they made literature
truly accessible, more people would want to read it, and more people would
perhaps want to enter the field of literary studies. 

As for the assumption that I said that I knew what, in this case, Cervantes,
was thinking, please take a look at what I actually said. They key words
there are, "it is evident in READING Don Quixote..." Every critical paper I
have read that claimed to uncover some meaning that the author put in made
the claim that the critic knew what the author was thinking. I made a
similar suggestion. If you look at the way the stroy was constructed, it
seems evident that Certantes was concerned with the unfolding of the story,
not with some abstract ideas or morals. Take a look at those quotes I posted
from Kundera's book "The Art of the Novel." He makes the same claims I have
been trying to make, albeit, much better than I. Where are the comments on
those quotes? I have heard nothing aboutthem so far. And they made up the
bulk of the posting. Naturally, that has been ignored, because no one
actually wants to deal with texts, but want to engage in ad hominem (you,
until recently, being an exception. But then, so was Barron, whose blind
attacks only made things worse on my part, I will be the first to admit).
>  
>  That's why.  
>  
>  Respect is earned, not given freely.

Well, Barron did have mine until he started acting like George. George
started gaining mine when he started acting his age, but has lost it again
when he resoted to his old rhetoric. I have no respect for anyone who cannot
avoid starting ad hominem attacks (it is different, I think to respond to
them with them, though - please note I have not attacked anyone personally
first).
>  
>  People generally tolerate G or Barron when they get huffy because THEY
have 
>  already earned respect on this list by making cogent, non-circular, well 
>  supported arguments.

I didn't consider them to be either cogent or non-circular. They have made
no effort whatsoever to try to understand my point of view, while I have
time and again in various arguments shown a capacity to do so and even to
admit when I was incorrect or if I misunderstood something. They have
certainly shown no effort or ability to do so themselves.
>  
>  If you recall, I did hop on G's case about his behavior at one point, and
I 
>  did that mostly because he was dissing you without offering a point of
his 
>  own, other than that the writing you've done on the list lately does not
yet 
>  represent a cogent argument because it's circular and based on
assumptions 
>  you do not much explain or defend, but repeat instead.  I'm still almost
will 
>  to believe that there is a cogent argument back there in your head, but
I'm 
>  not yet seeing represented on the screen ------ and not being a
mindreader, 
>  that's all I have to go with.   But, G, it turns out, right to be so
critical 
>  so early, because the rest of the discussion consisted largely of people 
>  asking or demanding that you clarify (not matter how rudely, that's what
they 
>  were asking), and you did not do so.  Do so, and we'll play nicely with
you 
>  again -- as I'm about to do when I return to your post on teaching.

Well, I am not going to respond favorably to rudeness - nor should I be
expected to. If they had asked reasonable questions that I could have
directly answered, I would have. They have and did not. And when I tried to
explain what I was trying to say, they ignored it and kept going back to
things I has said before, ignoring followups or explanations, purposefully
deleting such in their responses. That is why I leave everything the other
person wrote, so others can see that I am not just picking and choosing
things out of context, which is what Barron had been doing lately. If you or
anyone else does not understand what I am trying to say, please ask me,
nicely, without being rude or condescending or resorting to ad hominem
attacks on someone who you don't actually know. Somehow when I have these
kinds of discussions in person, it doesn't turn into what these discussions
have, but stay professional. Perhaps it is the impersonality of these
discussion groups. But if we want to actually gain anything from them than
some false sense of superiority over someone whom we don't actually know,
then we are all going to have to become much more civil. We are educated,
intelligent, professional people, not barbarians. Let's act with some
decorum for a change.

Troy Camplin





_______________________________________________________
Say Bye to Slow Internet!
http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html



     --- from list phillitcrit-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---