Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 15:04:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Nacho Cordova <cordova-AT-wam.umd.edu>
Subject: RE: Accrediting bodies (colonial discourse in a post-colonial list)



Hey Folks:

I'm usually a lurker but this conversation speaks to a concern of mine at
the moment. I've interspersed my comments throughout.

On Sun, 18 Feb 2001, waiel ashry wrote:
 
> Dialgue requires a sort of respect to start with but if that important
> thing is not there, i am afraid that it can not take place.

Of course it can. Parties come into conversation in various states of
mind, and with many purposes/intentions. We expect and believe that at
first recalcitrant others will listen to reason and change their minds, or
at least vent and move on to a more receptive state of mind. If we did not
believe that it was possible to effectuate change or influence others why
are we engaged in our respective disciplines? Are we to stop at the
beginning just because we find a bit of resistance? Do we engage
forcefully only when it is convenient? That dialogue may be hard to
establish does not mean we should give up our attempts at it.
 
> Anyways is implying (albeit un-intentionally) that lebanese are a bunch
> of uncivilized people to whom Europeans r sent to do every sort of things
> (including very basic internet searches) diferent from killing 2 iraqis 2
> days before and hearing president bush say it is a "routine" operation?
> 
Two things about this statement: 1) We ascribe an identity to Perryh
without any foundation besides our expectation of "hearing" that from that
"other." 2) Of course implying "uncivilized," and "lackey" to a group is
not the same as killing people, not justifying those killings. But that's
not the issue. The issue that was brought up by Jaclyn deals with our
ability, and yes, compassion and sensitivity to not become that dreaded
other that we suffer sometimes with better grace. Thus, while the crafting
of the email left some to be desired, Jaclyn's question is directed at us,
at examining that we don't become that which we argue against. It's a fine
point to remember that we are not immune nor excluded from the practice of
"othering," from complicity in marginalization. At times we become so
reactionary that we engage in tired, old, and unproductive cultural
politics that only serve to nourish the very practices we wish to
disrupt. And, no that does not mean that we must be passive, take it in
the chin constantly people. A good paragon would be Frederick Douglass.

> and isnt it linked  someway to the support that israel always gets
> regardless of the no of Palestinians killed daily? and int Isreal
> European in that sense, i mean adapting killing  the other as its basic
> strategy?

No, it is not linked to this at all. I don't mean offense, but this is a
simple rhetorical strategy of redirection, deflection (and a non
sequitur). We can't escape claims against our practices by deflecting and
redirecting and not facing the tough questions. We only do damage to our
own praxis. The idea of the "kill" of the other is not necessarily
European as the quick response to the original email demonstrates. It is
something we all do and something that we rightly need to address in our
own practice. Or are we to "pull" stunt like the U.S. Supreme Court in the
past elections and say that their actions apply limitedly?

> is nt all this linked  to the way europeans and americans regard or more
> precisely disregard the "other"? and didnt that disregard shape the
> european mentality including those who call for "dialogue" with the
> "other" that had always been "killed" in some way or other?

Same as above. While an argument from history might be used effectively to
support an account of how certain groups dominated, oppressed, and killed
others, regarding them as subhuman, inferior, etc. it still does not
necessarily justify such a generalization as the basis for judgment. 

I suspect we know all of this already. In fact, we claim we teach these
things to students, and spend considerable time explaining why we don't
engage in such practices. Why then, are we engaging in this kind of
behavior and disguising it as some sort of prideful activism, cultural
politics?


Best Regards,

Nacho Cordova
cordova-AT-wam.umd.edu
==================




> 
> Waiel Ashry
> 
> >From: jaclynr-AT-free.fr
> >Reply-To: postcolonial-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
> >To: postcolonial-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
> >Subject: RE: Accrediting bodies (colonial discourse in a post-colonial
> list)
> >Date: 18 Feb 2001 13:45:48 +0100
> >
> >Must people always weigh their words before writing? Is there no more
> freedom of expression? Dialogue, compromise and mutual understanding
> cannot evolve if communication isn't allowed to flow uncensored oblivious
> to the "right" (read politically correct) way of saying things is
> established from the start.
> >Why attack Perry for an obviously "spontaneous", albeit unclear request?
> Are you really sure that Perry is an evil, money grubbing, insensitive
> and arrogant westerner - read, "neo-colonizer"? You could have asked him
> for further clarification instead of attacking him first. Why are certain
> people so eager to attack others? I find this all the more disconcerting
> considering the nature of this list.
> >I didn't feel like his request concerned me, like many others on this
> list; so, I simply didn't respond even if I found the wording of his text
> "strange" and rather ironic. Must every e-mail be analyzed for potential
> culturally "insensitive" material?
> >How can people evolve intellectually and learn to say the "right" things
> if you castrate and castigate them the second they open their mouths.
> Reactionary watch dogs are everywhere, on both sides of the fence. I
> don't like "dogs" very much ... I hope this doesn't open me up to
> criticism as well (although I've obviously thrown myself into the fray)
> >Let's not trade in one form of oppression for another. I'm looking
> forward to respectful communication and open dialogue - even if that
> means "putting up" with some potentially insensitive statements and
> eventually, while calling in to question the most "questionable" ones
> worthy of discussion & not petty attacks. This "love it or leave it
> attitude" was perfected by the American National Rifle Association and
> the American military ... enough said?
> >Jaclyn
> >a usually invisible spectator on the list...
> >
> > > ** Original Subject: RE: Accrediting bodies(colonial discourse in a
> post-colonial list)
> > > ** Original Sender: waiel ashry
> > > ** Original Date: 18 Feb 2001 12:10:00 -0000
> >
> > > ** Original Message follows...
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> 
> i am Egyptian and i had worked in Kuwait and had a first hand experience
> of Europeans and Americans working in the arab world, taking hold of the
> money and then expressing their unhappiness with being in an uncivilized
> society.
> 
> > >
> 
> though i dont exactly know what "Perryh" does and i which university in
> beriut, i find it very hard to believe that he s the only "civilized"
> person there who can do an internet search specially that i have dealt
> with lots of Lebanese! Anyways i think he doesn't have to stay in "old
> poor beriut".
> 
> > >
> 
> Regards all
> Waiel Ashry
> 
> > >
> > >
> >From: Perryh
> > >
> >Reply-To: postcolonial-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
> > >
> >To: postcolonial-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu
> > >
> >Subject: Accrediting bodies
> > >
> >Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 06:27:08 +0200
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >I work for a University in Lebanon, I do all sorts of
> > >
> >things for them, its the wild west here. They asked me yesterday if I
> could
> > >
> >find out who is the accrediting body for universities in NY, I was going
> to
> > >
> >wait for Monday to start searching ( I think they asked me this because
> I am
> > >
> >the only one who can do a net search!!) but thought I might try here.
> I'd
> > >
> >appreciate it a lot if anyone could tell me this, or
> > >
> >point me in the right direction.
> > >
> >
> > >
> >What can I offer you in return?
> > >
> >Hmm,
> > >
> >could send you some nice pics of Damascus, a much more interesting place
> > >
> >than
> > >
> >poor old Beirut.
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >
> > >
> >Cheers
> > >
> >Perry
> > >
> >
> > >
> > >
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
> > > --- from list postcolonial-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
> >
> >
> > >** --------- End Original Message ----------- **
> >
> > >
> >
> >&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
> >&&&& Jaclyn Rosebrook-Collignon
> >&&&& 5 bd. Agutte-Sembat
> >&&&& 38000 Grenoble France
> >&&&& jaclynr-AT-free.fr
> >&&&& jaclynrosebrook-AT-hotmail.com
> >&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
> >&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
> >
> >Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
> >
> >
> >
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