From: suhak-AT-canada.com
Date: 4 Mar 2002 17:52:07 -0800
Subject: Re: Isreal/S. Arabia (was holy cities )


Israel,as far as I know, never tied the issue of Jerusalem  with that of having non-Muslims go to Mecca/Medina.

Allowing people into a certain city alone is never a sign of being diverse/democratic. You can visit China, but is it democratic? You can visit Japan but is it diverse?

One more thing, many people talk about 'democracy' without really defining what it means. If it means that anyone off-age can vote, then, yes, Israel is democratic. But if it means that everyone stands equal before the law, and that some are not more equal than others, I think many 'democratic' countries would fail under this definition. We are still debating 'glass ceiling' phenomenon, and subtle discrimination in the work place in the 'advanced/diverse' West, aren't we?

While some feel anti-Palestine because of Hamas and other fundamental religious groups, few can see that the right-wing in Israel isn't any better. They, too, are a fundamental group that would like to annihilate their Islamic/Arab counterpart. Also, while people might point accusing figures at Islamic schools, they do not do the same when it comes to Ultra Orthodox Yeshivas. In my opinion both groups are like the two faces of the same coin, except that world media is oblivious to the  fundamental Ultra Orthodox groups, but not to Hamas. For me, this constitutes a double standard. One can be critical of both, or approve both if you wish, but not approve/overlook one group while blaming the other. 

Also, the religious groups in Israel control many legal aspects, esp. those related to family law-same as any Arab country. For example, all acknowledged marriages have to be religious ones. You can have a civil marriage if you wish but your kids then would be considered, from a religious point of view, conceived out of wedlock; this is a very serious stigma! When they grow up, they are not recognized as legitimate, and this will cause huge problems when they choose to marry. Another example, Orthodox Jewish women cannot diverse; they have to wait for their (ex)husbands to grant them divorce. This can go on for years/for ever if the husband chooses not to do so out of spite. I suggest you watch "Kadosh" a movie by Amos Gitai in order to understand the real complexities of life & religion in Israel. 

Saudi Arabia isn't any better in this regard. The only good thing about it is that it is all too blatantly conservative that it is too easy to criticize! Opening its cities to anyone, won't make it a better/worse place.  On the other hand, Israel juggles religious orthodoxy and secularism very well. 

If you do decent, comprehensive research re. this, the results will astound you!

Suha

> --- Charrl-AT-aol.com wrote:
> > There were interesting responses to my query about
> > prohibiting non-believers 
> > from visiting Mecca and Medina.  It seems there is
> > no theological reason, 
> > only a line in the Koran about pagans or
> > idol-worshipers or polytheistic 
> > people not being allowed to approach the Ka'aba. 
> > Several respondents cast 
> > the prohibitions in strictly power terms, and there
> > were suggestions of 
> > earlier military threats from other religions and of
> > "a group that is closed 
> > - not open to interaction with or...examination by
> > outsiders".
> > 
> > One of the most interesting posts discussed a
> > "symbolic statement about the 
> > power of the IN group" which included a reference to
> > sharing of buildings for 
> > worship among Moslems, Jews, and Christians in an
> > earlier era.  (Just today, 
> > I learned that a Jewish architect, Louis Kahn,
> > worked in the Islamic Republic 
> > of Pakistan in the 1960s and 1970s to design what
> > became the National 
> > Assembly building in Dacca, Bangladesh.)
> > 
> > The reason I asked about Mecca and Medina has to do
> > with a recent "land for 
> > peace" proposition made by the Saudi crown prince,
> > which has been the subject 
> > of widespread interest and of calls for more detail.
> >  The proposition would 
> > have the Israelis pulling back to pre-war borders
> > which existed in early 
> > 1967, when Jews were not allowed even to visit many
> > of their holy places, 
> > including the wailing wall of the second temple in
> > Jersualem.
> > 
> > While getting to an Israeli-Palestinian ceasefire is
> > now a huge challenge, 
> > resolving the status of Jerusalem is a much thornier
> > impediment to a 
> > comprehensive political agreement.  How can the
> > Saudi leader, whose people 
> > have long prohibited anyone not Moslem from even
> > setting foot in Mecca and 
> > Medina, reasonably expect the Jewish people to cede
> > control of Jersualem?  
> > How would he feel if Mecca were to be walled off to
> > Moslems?  How would he 
> > feel if Mecca were to be "despoiled" by the mere
> > presence of non-believers?  
> > How can Saudis and other Moslems expect Israel to
> > take the proposal 
> > seriously, as long as Mecca and Medina are off
> > limits for seemingly no other 
> > reasons than historical ones which no longer apply,
> > or because of ingrained 
> > intolerance or arrogance toward anyone whose beliefs
> > are different from their 
> > own?
> > 
> > Charles Orlowek  
> > 
> > 
> >      --- from list
> > postcolonial-AT-lists.village.virginia.edu ---
> 
> 
> ====> "All the wolves in the wolf factory paused at noon, 
> for a moment of silence."
> ........from laughing Gravy by John Ashbery.
> ---------------------------------------------------------
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> Check out: http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~simmers/
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