From: antonsen-AT-alf.nbi.dk
Subject: Re: Soul and Body Two  
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 97 16:50:01 +0200


Although it is nice to see some activity on the s-list again, I've hesitated to 
enter the present discussion initiated by Edward. For a number of reasons: I was 
originally put off by the religious tone (now, Edward have later changed the 
tone somewhat - nolonger any mentioning of godheads or other religious words), 
the dualism and apparent lack of dialectics annoyed me as did the 
anti-materialism. Obviously these annoyances might be due to misunderstandings 
on my part due to the language of Edward's text (cp the godhead problem). Thus I 
think I ought to participate.

Re: Carbon atoms and all that. Luke made a good point about complexity, which 
was also behind one of Pierre's comments. It boils down to dialectics. The whole 
can be greater than the sum of its parts (Luke's example with molecules and 
organisms, Pierre's with spirituality). The point being that a sufficient number 
of similar objects, when put together, can give rise to a qualitatively new 
phenomen (a shift from mere quantity to quality). Examples of such emergent 
structures are: life (out of organic and inorganic moleclues), consciousnes (out 
of brain cells), language (out of soundmaking) and spirituality. It is essential 
to keep in mind that these phenomena are dynamical, they have been created at 
some point, they have a history, they undergo change.

Re: metaphor. As Pierre pointed out, Edward had originally put it upside-down. 
Religion is a degredation of metaphor (metaphors which have lost their dynamical 
poetic validity, become petrified, become dogma). Language too is nothing but 
metaphors. What else can it possibly be? A word is not the thing it represents 
("ceci n'est pas un pibe" as Magritte showed us). Furthermore, language has a 
history, it has appeared as a means of collecting mankinds knowledge about the 
world around us. Hence many primitive words are supposedly onomatepoetical - the 
ancient Egyptian word for "cat" is "miau" - also the first words (in both the 
individual as the collective history of our species) seems to be nouns. 
Language is thus born as a tool, but it all to easily becomes a prison. 
Infatuated with the power of words, man become convinced that "in the beginning 
was the word", that ideas come before matter, abstractions are taken for reality 
whereas concrete objects are taken to be illusions. A particularly vicious 
example is that of godhead. Man created the godhead, and is still creating it. 
(Michael also pointed out something similar, and Edward sharpened his orginal 
formulation to one I think is correct, namely that the godhead is continously 
being created.)
The liberation of language is one of the most important tasks surrealism has set 
itself.

Re: immortality .... well I care little for immortality.

Unfortunately, I have to leave now....
But, one more, nice to see some thoughts and activity here.

More later.

Frank

PS. Greetings to Edward.