From: "Ravi Narayan" <rn-AT-big.att.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 12:16:52 -0500
Subject: Re: time to do some aditional reading?


On Mar 29, 12:59pm, bhaatasari wrote:
> Ravi, check out the archives linked to the spoon homepage (i can never
> remmber that address off hand....) which is linked to my "other links" site
> on y homepage... we had a discussion - and then we can have some more -
> about this name:-)
>

here's the url:

gopher://jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU:70/1m/pubs/listservs/spoons/third-world-women.archive/current

after reading through it, i feel rather foolish for not having done so
before i posted my thoughts, for i see that this issue was indeed discussed
in detail.

shshwati talukdar says, in that discussion:

---- included message ------

 The term "third world" was coined by Jawharlal Nehru to denote developing
 countries like India, I am sure he had different intentions from the way
 the term is used today. In a sense the West has gotten this term, or
 appropriated it from the developing nations, and it means what it does
 today in part due to that appropriation.

 We don't have to change the name of the list to defy the term, we
 should merely appropriate it back, and make it mean what we want it to
 mean.

 I think that the arguement to use PC terms is a valid one, but it
 very often obscures the issues that gave rise to the non-pc term in the
 first place, people think they've done their bit to improve things by
 using the right word, and leave it at that.

-----------------------------

it is news to me that the term "third world" was coined by nehru. my
impression ha always been that he coined the term "non aligned nations"
but the term "third world" came from the west. that of course adds a
different perspective to my question. from radhika's response (in that
thread, not to my post) its obvious that the intended and implied
significance of the term "third world" have been considered and
represented in the naming of the list.

i have no intentions of suggesting any change to the list's name,
especially being mostly a lurker! my question was mainly aimed at what the
list member's perceive as the meaning of the term 'third world'. i found
ample answers in the archives. but now that i have opened my mouth, i
might as well add a few more thoughts ;-).

i think we now need a politically correct term for "politically correct",
for just calling something PC reduces its significance, these days ;-).
saadia toor, while commenting in that thread writes:

----- included message ------------

es, i agree with shahshwati: i think far too much energy is expended in
arguing about what constitutes the "right" or "wrong" name for such and
such thing.  i, for one, have no problem with the being called a third
world woman, because i don't find it an offensive term.  stupid and
inadequate maybe, but not offensive.  of course, it all depends on the
context in which it is being deployed and who is using it to
designate/address whom, but then that is always a problem, isn't it?

-----------------------------------

i both agree and disagree with the sentiment above and that expressed by
shashwati and a few others. the "name" and the "word" have, i believe a
far deeper significance than we choose to accept. that is where i
disagree. for instance, shashwati writes that "third world" was a term
chosen by nehru to denote "developing nations" like india. here again, we
lack a clear definition or understanding of the term "developing".
developing nations in what sense? industrial? technological? by using
the term "developing", in this instance, are we not restricting the idea
of the "development" of a nation to its industrial and technological
might?

i do agree however that, were we to realize the true sigificance of the
name and the word, necessary corrective measures should not consist of
mostly arbitrary renaming, which probably is what some (including me,
at times) find troublesome about the trend towards "political
correctness". one does not fix, imho, the "wrong meaning" of a "term"
by removing all "meaning". in previous discussions on other forums
regarding these issues, i have taken great pleasure in quoting a
particular secion from jonah blank's excellent book: arrow of the
bule-skinned god. in response to silvia pellarolo, i do so again
below.


On Mar 29,  3:57pm, Silvia Pellarolo wrote:
> I think that  the number "three" conveys the idea not only of non-alignment,
> but also of plurality, otherness, a resistance to binarism, in short, a pain
> in the butt.
>

an excellent way of looking at it! i agree.


> My point is that I don't know about "latecomers," but being "pushy" is a
> powerful political tactic.


i think my post wasnt clear enough. prof. feyerabend refers to the "first
world" as the "pushy latecomers", not the third world.


> Also, lets not forget Caliban's strategy of decolonization: he learnt his
> oppressor's language to curse him. So did Rigoberta Menchu.


very true. while talking about the "dravidians" of south india, jonah
blank writes:

        ironically, self-respect and self-control are two of
        the dravidians' foremost traits. few other peoples could
        have prodly held on to their distinct cultural identity
        through three thousand years of disparagement. few other
        peoples could have displayed the calm patience to deal
        with their conquerors by outlasting them.

and adds (in the context of racially/culturally condescending or insulting
terminology and the alternative to dealing with them in a politically
correct fashion):

        one sure way to rob a racial slur of its sting is to
        embrace it wholeheartedly. in america, men and women
        whose parents had been crudely termed "coloured" now wear
        the name "people of colour" with pride. rappers like ice
        cube, nwa, and the geto boys defiantly lable themselves
        "niggers" - as ice-t puts it, "not a watermelon and
        chitlin eatin' nigger down south, but a nigger that'll
        smack the taste from your mouth". with this idea, salman
        rushdie named his prophet after a medieval demon - and was
        disastrously misunderstood by people who hadn't bothered
        to read his book.

        the dravidians, consciously or unconsciously, seem to have
        done it right. whether the telugu warriors who built
        vijayanagar or the tamil moviegoers who cheer more
        lustily for hanuman than for rama, they defeat contempt
        with self-respect. man is, after all, merely an ape
        with an attitude.


							- ravi

--
Is teaching the latest scientific fashion as The Truth really the best
way of preparing the next generation for life?
	- from the unpublished preface to the third edition of:
			farewell to reason by paul feyerabend